=== Predecessors (L10/L50 Routes) === 2002-2004(?) - Ed. Note: Adolescent entrpntr spends way too much time battling/dying to Battle Tower Apr 2014 - werster routes L10 Battle Tower (Skarmory, Jolteon, Onix) Apr/Jun/Dec 2014 - werster (and crafted) do L10 runs, best time is werster's 4:06:28 Aug/Sep 2015 - entrpntr's Trainer AI research 28 Nov 2015 - crafted does another L10 Battle Tower run (unfinished) - Ed. Note: entrpntr watches crafted's run with great anticipation - Ed. Note: entrpntr gets mad at the L10 route involving egg creation/hatching - Ed. Note: entrpntr gets excited at potential for applying Trainer AI research Nov/Dec 2015 - entrpntr routes L50 Battle Tower (Suicune, Snorlax, Typhlosion) - entrpntr does L50 practice run, time is 4:32:44 with lots of deaths - Ed. Note: entrpntr develops a burning hatred of the Cyndaquil evolutionary line Apr 2016 - Underscore makes yolo L10 route (Miltank, Onix, Tangela/Wobbuffet), no finished runs Apr 2017 - Entei + [Multiple] Master Ball manip turns L50 into Suicune/Snorlax/Entei Aug 2017 - Underscore researches L50 route, and routes Raikou as a backup for Entei - Underscore does L50 runs, best time is 3:43:42 with Raikou (Ed. Note: and female Snorlax wtf) - Ed. Note: Raikou with HP Fire is probably the best L50 route with manip === L20 Route Origins === Wobbuffet's potential spurs hope for a 7 badge L20 route Dec 2015 - Oct 2016 (recurring dreams of 7 badge Battle Tower routes) - gifvex: just struck me as odd you can just walk in battle tower near olivine but L10 route does the whole elite four - entrpntr: yeah, Crystal Battle Tower is legit hard - entrpntr: and AI not abuseable for the most part - entrpntr: maybe there is an idea that allows you to win like 50% of fights - entrpntr: basically Skarmory just fucks up L10 by stalling - entrpntr: and Suicune + Snorlax do the same for L50 - entrpntr: but I haven't taken a solid look at L20, L30, L40 metagame - entrpntr: finding a way to exploit the pool of pokes is going to be the best way to find something - entrpntr: if you can find a way to win 50% of fights without going to Kanto, that would surprise me - entrpntr: at the very least, you'll probably need to get 7 badges ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I mean, my ultimate goal is to route RTA to be 7 badges ~~~~~ - entrpntr: after 7th badge, you are cockblocked by Radio Tower - entrpntr: which is 25 minutes and does nothing useful - entrpntr: so idea is to beat Battle Tower with no more than 7 badges - entrpntr: all runs to date have done E4 and gone into Kanto 27-28 Aug 2016 (discovery of Underscore's yolo routes + Wobbuffet; shortly after general RNG manip discovery) - entrpntr: L20 and L30 Battle Tower might be able to use some truly off-the-wall pokes with manips ~~~~~ - entrpntr: Underscore may also have been onto something with Miltank + Wobbuffet - entrpntr: except I don't think he used Milk Drink on Miltank for whatever reason - entrpntr: which would seem to make it a godly choice for L20 - Ed. Note: battle_tower_l20_team.rtf created on 28 Aug 2016 6 Sep 2016 (a stirring Wobbuffet testimony is delivered) - entrpntr: Looking more into Miltank for Battle Tower? With manip I may want to look into some possibilities again at some point - entrpntr: 7 badge Battle Tower being the ideal situation - entrpntr: Several options to consider for L20 and L30 if you get (relatively) fast encounters with good DVs - UnderscorePoY: i think Miltank can be viable in Battle Tower - UnderscorePoY: And Wobbuffet can do amazing stuff (like wiping a whole team himself) - entrpntr: how consistently were you winning battles when you tried - UnderscorePoY: Every battle i lost is because the 1st poke countered Wobbuffet - UnderscorePoY: You have nothing to deal with Dark Types - entrpntr: oh you were doing L10 10-11 Oct 2016 (first deep dive into L20 options) - entrpntr: you made me look into Crystal Battle Tower again - entrpntr: I'm looking at L20 options - entrpntr: it feels like Wobbuffet is necessary - entrpntr: assuming Underscore's testimonial holds up - entrpntr: but idk, there are several options, and a lot of things that you need to cover - entrpntr: but I'm over the L50 route - entrpntr: I'm dead set on 7 badges - entrpntr: you can fight Battle Tower as soon as you get there, it's just impossible - entrpntr: but from what I saw of Underscore's VODs, he was actually winning fights - entrpntr: and he said Wobbuffet can take out entire teams ~~~~~ - entrpntr: > Wobbuffet @ Gold Berry - Counter, Mirror Coat, Destiny Bond, Safeguard > Crobat @ Mint Berry - Confuse Ray/Swagger, Fly, Rest, Sludge Bomb/Endure > Exeggutor @ Quick Claw - Hypnosis, Nightmare, Leech Seed, Attract/Endure/Swagger - entrpntr: what are the chances this ridiculous team can do anything ; (Ed. Note: Crobat can't learn Sludge Bomb LOL WTF) - entrpntr: L20 has lots of decent options, but it seems impossible to make a team of 3 that works - entrpntr: a few pokes definitely cause trouble for the team, but that seems unavoidable - entrpntr: just try to have an out in every battle - entrpntr: if Miltank could learn Thief, that would be beautiful - entrpntr: there were a few annoying cases of some Pokemon not getting some moves - entrpntr: I don't think there is a concept that will allow the other 2 pokes to win - entrpntr: so this is heavily dependent on Wobbuffet taking down 2 pokes - entrpntr: my guess is Exeggutor is not tanky enough to pull this shit off - entrpntr: but he handles Starmie & Alakazam - entrpntr: Crobat handles Umbreon & Heracross - entrpntr: and hopefully they can cheese enough % - entrpntr: Lapras is another alternative for Sing/Nightmare stuff - entrpntr: have to do dumb stuff like that if you want to deal damage to things - entrpntr: the most annoying thing is for L20 Slowbro, Curse is just barely overwritten - entrpntr: so the only thing that can actually raise its stats is Sunflora - entrpntr: Growth, Mega Drain, Rest, Attract - entrpntr: how cool would that be for a moveset - entrpntr: but I doubt it can get that kind of setup off anyway - entrpntr: Exeggutor/Lapras/Wigglytuff/Noctowl/Butterfree are the Sleep Move + Nightmare options - entrpntr: Crobat not getting Mud-Slap is another annoying thing ~~~~~ - entrpntr: assuming Toto route completes 7 badges by 1:35, there is a ton of time available - entrpntr: I'm trying very minimal things right now - entrpntr: things that won't take 30 extra minutes - entrpntr: I don't mind getting Good Rod and fishing for example - entrpntr: if breeding enters the equation then it probably makes more sense to look at L10 - entrpntr: If I use Crobat, I'll have to get Friend Balls - entrpntr: stuff like that is fine - entrpntr: anyway, nothing promising enough to follow thru anytime soon === Crobat Purgatory === Bygone era of thinking Crobat was necessary for Heracross/Umbreon (Oct 2016 - May 2018) 26 Dec 2016 (lamentations, part 1) - entrpntr: I don't have any expectation of consistency or fun with the manip - entrpntr: and my CBT routing didn't really go well - entrpntr: basically Wobbuffet + Crobat at L20 is a good combo - entrpntr: but I don't see a way to ever win more than like 60% - entrpntr: Wobbuffet owns - entrpntr: but no other pokemon are strong enough - entrpntr: Miltank gets owned 9 May 2017 (lamentations, part 2) - entrpntr: one day the category will be cheesed by L20 strats with Wobbuffet + Crobat + ??? to just try to luckbox way through Battle Tower with only 7 badges obtained - entrpntr: but that's no fun 15-16 Aug 2017 (motivation returns after Underscore's completed L50 run) - entrpntr: for those who missed it, thanks to Underscore, L50 Battle Tower strats finally dethroned L10 strats yesterday - entrpntr: by a good ~23 minutes - entrpntr: my prediction is that in 2020, there will be manip, and route will be L20 strats w/7 badges (Wobbuffet + Crobat + Exeggutor(?)) where you're only like 75% to win each fight - UnderscorePoY: Wobbuffet + Miltank + Onix plz ~~~~~ - entrpntr: now I can ignore the L50 Battle Tower route at least - entrpntr: my goal was going to be sub-3:40 but that time proves the point - entrpntr: RNG Manip is going to be required for L20 tho - entrpntr: + dumb route that probably needs great luck in tower anyway - entrpntr: so no guarantee I pursue it - entrpntr: but at least one thing is off my plate ~~~~~ - entrpntr: and of course all I want to think about right now is L20 Battle Tower - entrpntr: originally I was just thinking about maybe extending the route a little bit further - entrpntr: get Sleep Talk, and maybe there is some good Rest/Sleep Talk poke - entrpntr: I came up with 5 options - entrpntr: at least on paper I don't like any of them - entrpntr: circled back to Exeggutor - entrpntr: but most of it will have to be tested in practice - entrpntr: and it will rely on DV manip - entrpntr: there were 4 besides Exeggutor - entrpntr: only one of them is really noteworthy I guess - entrpntr: I have mentioned Sunflora before - entrpntr: Growth/Mega Drain/Rest/Sleep Talk - entrpntr: seemed like a fun option - entrpntr: but I guess it probably dies - entrpntr: would be better if Growth was Calm Mind like in Gen 1 - entrpntr: Lapras with Surf/Body Slam/Rest/Sleep Talk or something like that - entrpntr: I think it is probably second best option after Exeggutor - entrpntr: Shuckle was really not a Sleep Talk option - entrpntr: just a "can do a lot of shit" option - entrpntr: and survive for a long time - entrpntr: and then fucking Pinsir - entrpntr: which I really wanted to work, but seems lacking after looking over more - entrpntr: and I'm guessing cannot survive well enough - entrpntr: but I need to test how some things work - entrpntr: Pinsir getting L19 Seismic Toss with Rest/Sleep Talk - entrpntr: I thought might mean it would be able to kill some shit - entrpntr: I forget how Leech Seed and Encore work for switchouts and deaths - entrpntr: but Exeggutor with something like Thief/Leech Seed/Rest - entrpntr: should be able to handle a lot of things I think - entrpntr: and at the very least do something useful - entrpntr: which is not easy to do - entrpntr: if it had 5 moves it would probably be easier - entrpntr: and with Thief it can keep staying alive - entrpntr: Gold Berry/Berry Juice/Leftovers - entrpntr: if it could do Swagger + Reflect on top of that moveset - entrpntr: + Sludge Bomb - entrpntr: but Leech Seed really did a surprising amount of damage when I tried it last time - entrpntr: and when Wobbuffet is virtually guaranteed to take something down - entrpntr: and often takes 2 things down - entrpntr: Pinsir has Bind, Lapras has Whirlpool, Shuckle has Wrap, Sludge Bomb is the only way to get PSN - entrpntr: just trying to add up chip damage - entrpntr: but need to take a strong look at situations - entrpntr: Crobat I think handles the least things - entrpntr: handles Heracross and Umbreon tho - entrpntr: I am guessing Crobat is Fly/Endure/Confuse Ray - entrpntr: Exeggutor can beat Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor - entrpntr: and it should be able to beat Blissey - entrpntr: Softboiled is annoying, but PP does tick down - entrpntr: it is something you should be able to actually safely switch in on a number of things - entrpntr: but it means Wobbuffet needs to take out all Ice move users - entrpntr: Lapras/Tauros/Azumarill/Wigglytuff(1)/Nidoking - entrpntr: not worried about Hitmonchan's Ice Punch - entrpntr: anyway, it is not going to be like L50 - entrpntr: there are going to be teams that you draw that likely mean death - entrpntr: and point of the third poke is to just maximize chances ~~~~~ - entrpntr: Yanma has Double Team and Sonicboom I think - entrpntr: which was a fun RestTalk candidate for about 5 seconds - entrpntr: 65/45/45 defenses = dead - entrpntr: Ariados gets Night Shade - entrpntr: Pinsir gets Seismic Toss - entrpntr: Exeggutor I think would get exp from Exp Share - entrpntr: but yeah I don't think there is a great RestTalk candidate ~~~~~ - entrpntr: loL guess Weezing is a possibility with manip - entrpntr: Selfdestruct - entrpntr: not sure if useful - entrpntr: 1% slot - entrpntr: guess when I looked before I only cared if 5% ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I don't really want to do Radio Tower - entrpntr: but in interim I am willing to consider anything that is only 40ish minutes total out of the way after 7 badges - entrpntr: aim for sub-3 - entrpntr: if I can just make it 75% or so winrate per fight, it is worth grinding 2 Apr 18 (lamentations, part 3) - entrpntr: I was going to make a paste about improvements to existing runs - entrpntr: whenever I run out of desire to continue speedrunning - entrpntr: like I doubt I'll get to Crystal Battle Tower L20 === Enlightenment === Inspiration for a 4 badge route (Wobbuffet + Miltank + ?) comes unexpectedly, from a profoundly silly category 26 Apr 2018 - 12 May 2018 - Crystal NSC is born (thanks to luckytyphlosion); requires winning 1 fight in Battle Tower - First run completed in 2:26:55 by entrpntr (L20 Wobbuffet/Lapras/Sudowoodo) 5 May 2018 - entrpntr: I've run into more exploitable AI quirks from crysnsc testing - entrpntr: gives some hope for actual L20 CBT - entrpntr: 4 badge L20 team for crysnsc has like 30-35% winrate with not fully formed strategy - entrpntr: need more than that to want to grind CBT for 7 in a row, but this doesn't use Rest, doesn't use Vitamins, doesn't require good DVs, etc. 15-17 May 2018 - entrpntr: not sure if you saw my Crystal NSC run, but it requires winning 1 battle in Battle Tower; team I was using was pretty simple, only got 4 badges, no DV manip, no vitamins, and only taught Surf/Rock Smash/Mud-Slap as TMs/HMs - entrpntr: win % for a single battle has been somewhere between 35% and 40%, and not always making the best decisions still - entrpntr: thinking of replacing Sudowoodo with Miltank, and maybe Lapras with Quagsire/Vaporeon, but will need to test more - entrpntr: anyway, not sure if I am going to have the stomach for it, but it seems like the strat may be to spend a little bit of time to collect more things to make the team more consistent, then grind Battle Tower until you win - entrpntr: will have like 2 hours for attempting Battle Tower to beat L50 strats - entrpntr: probably needs RNG manip for sanity ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I think L20 Battle Tower might actually happen - entrpntr: Miltank (@ PSNcureberry) with Stomp/Attract/Milk Drink/Mud-Slap is surprisingly effective against the pool of pokes - entrpntr: especially with enough speed to hit all realistic thresholds (55 with manip and some Carbos); can take down entire teams on its own - entrpntr: hasn't translated to sufficient dominance yet, but I'm hopeful - entrpntr: highlight so far has been winning a fight by PP stalling Umbreon for a million turns and then having Wobbuffet use Counter against Struggle ~~~~~ - entrpntr: some combo of not being used to the team and practice file having bad Wobbuffet/Lapras has made it so I haven't had great success yet I think - entrpntr: tho I probably underrated how nice it was to have Sudowoodo to soak up Hyper Beams - entrpntr: also haven't changed Lapras's moveset yet, just replaced Sudowoodo with Miltank - entrpntr: RNG manip is easily the biggest hitch right now - entrpntr: with a 4 badge route, being just ~50% for any given fight is enough to consider grinding it - entrpntr: when I first looked at L20, I locked in on getting 7 badges and Crobat as a 2nd poke - entrpntr: Rest seemed like a necessity, but now it feels like you can just shave 30 minutes off and use it for extra attempts at getting a streak going - entrpntr: problem right now is that it is a fun, not totally serious category; would need to improve chances of winning so grinding isn't intolerable 20 May 2018 - 4 Jul 2018 - Gen 2 manip research and Entei/Raikou manip botting for Glitchless, as a warm up for CBT manips === Progress/Optimism === Signs of consistent success appear with Lapras as the third poke 18 Jul 2018 - entrpntr: I will have to figure out what I want to try for L20, which will probably suck me in - entrpntr: I think adding some fluff to L20 route for consistency sake might be the benchmark I go for - entrpntr: I don't see any flaws with a Wobbuffet/Weezing/Miltank team - entrpntr: question is what fluff - entrpntr: might be the entire Rocket Hideout to get Sludge Bomb/Thief - entrpntr: Weezing could just have Selfdestruct and it would probably be nearly as useful as if it had 3 other moves - entrpntr: but the right Weezing deals with Heracross (most importantly), and also helps with annoyers like Pikachu/Umbreon/Blissey - entrpntr: survive Megahorn + Earthquake, Selfdestruct, Miltank finishes - entrpntr: tho Miltank can go 1 on 1 with Heracross with some reliability, it just can't switch in - entrpntr: but idk for sure, haven't battled with it yet - entrpntr: it switches in on Hyper Beamers as well - entrpntr: which Lapras and Quagsire couldn't do so well - entrpntr: also haven't tested with something resembling manipped DV's, maybe Miltank and Wobbuffet don't need as much help with proper stats 21 Jul 2018 - entrpntr: tried some battles with manipped DVs, Weezing didn't seem all too useful - entrpntr: maybe Hidden Power would help it - entrpntr: didn't try Thief yet - entrpntr: Weezing doesn't seem to get too much from coverage turns out to be the issue - entrpntr: Sludge Bomb is pretty powerful, but you only get to use it once usually - entrpntr: Gyarados is another thing that is useful against Heracross - entrpntr: but Blissey/Umbreon/Pikachu are some things I'm annoyed by in general - entrpntr: being good against other things is valuable though - entrpntr: and ability to soak up Hyper Beams - entrpntr: not many things fit the bill - gifvex: is an eeveelution doing anything with tail whip / sand attack / growl? - entrpntr: Vaporeon would be good - entrpntr: Shadow Ball on it might be useful - entrpntr: Hidden Power would probably be useful - entrpntr: Tail Whip might be good on Umbreon/Blissey - entrpntr: I somehow made use of Growl in my NSC run - entrpntr: Tauros Hyper Beam is strong - entrpntr: idk it is going to be one of the pokes I've mentioned - entrpntr: I don't think Golbat/Crobat are too realistic - entrpntr: Weezing/Lapras/Gyarados/Quagsire/Vaporeon most likely - entrpntr: I have done a lot of battling with Lapras as the 3rd - entrpntr: which is what led me to thinking I needed something that wasn't Lapras - entrpntr: but that was non-manip DVs for all 3 - entrpntr: Quagsire and Lapras just can't switch in on Hyper Beam - gifvex: oh i looked at eeveelutions because of roar - entrpntr: yeah Roar could be useful - entrpntr: Gyara learns it too - entrpntr: Lapras gets Body Slam but no Roar - entrpntr: Rock Smash is pseudo-Tail Whip - entrpntr: not useful for too much besides Blissey/Umbreon - entrpntr: Slowbro was another thing to consider - entrpntr: does not help with the Heracross problem though - entrpntr: but better against Hyper Beamers than other choices - entrpntr: I don't think there is any obvious option I have missed, so it'll just be evaluating the best mix - entrpntr: Growl does seem a bit more useful - entrpntr: but issue with Lapras was you needed a Megahorn to miss or Quick Claw to activate - entrpntr: wasn't a high percentage proposition, but maybe better with Miltank as 3rd poke 25 Jul 2018 - entrpntr: opened up the savestate with the same team (Weezing) - entrpntr: instant 7 in a row win - entrpntr: no Blissey, 1 Heracross, 1 Umbreon, 1 Pikachu - entrpntr: think Weezing is dead as an option tho - entrpntr: even in winning 7 in a row it was mostly useless - entrpntr: it did poison Umbreon, which was somewhat helpful - entrpntr: I think I'll probably try Lapras - entrpntr: seems the most reliable, other choices can do specific things well tho - entrpntr: so testing Lapras first, can figure out what things annoy me the most and see if one of the other options works better from there ~~~~~ - entrpntr: Slowbro could be good too - entrpntr: Lapras at least has a prayer of doing something useful if you switch it in on Heracross - entrpntr: Slowbro just dies to Megahorn - gifvex: would you use hp flying on gyarados? - entrpntr: probably - entrpntr: there is not much of a spectrum for Heracross solutions - entrpntr: Crobat/Gyarados = destroy the shit out of it - entrpntr: then next is acceptable solutions that probably die ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I just realized manipped Lapras can survive Pika Thunderbolt - entrpntr: since Lapras actually has recourse against Pikachu, I can't see me changing - entrpntr: Quick Claw makes the most sense for Lapras - entrpntr: definitely Surf, and probably a question of Body Slam/Growl/Rock Smash/Endure - entrpntr: for Pikachu, Lapras Surf + Miltank Stomp kills it - entrpntr: Pikachu is only a threat if Wobbuffet took enough damage killing poke #1, so strategy might be sac Wobbuffet, kill with Surf+Stomp, then hope Miltank can kill the third thing - entrpntr: Growl is probably a more useful out on Heracross - entrpntr: Body Slam definitely is useful, but the other moves are too - entrpntr: so I really have no idea which move loses out - entrpntr: but ja, I am probably about to take this more seriously - entrpntr: given the strength of DV manip ~~~~~ - entrpntr: just got a 7-streak with Lapras - entrpntr: like 7th or 8th try - entrpntr: but Rock Smash didn't lower defense the first 7 times I used it in those trials - entrpntr: so I died to lots of Umbreons and Blisseys - entrpntr: but ja, I can see grinding for like sub-2:10 - entrpntr: somewhere around there - entrpntr: just to set the bar - entrpntr: make 7 badge unviable - entrpntr: I think this team can get to 75% per battle - entrpntr: it might already be that with my limited skill - entrpntr: possible I just got lucky - entrpntr: Pikachu is less of an issue too with good special Wobbuffet - entrpntr: I was too locked in on Wobbuffet + Crobat before basically - entrpntr: I tried Miltank as a 3rd but got owned - entrpntr: pre-manip tho - entrpntr: and did not try this particular Miltank set ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I will leave the possibility alive for Gyarados to take Lapras's place - entrpntr: the extra speed is nice, and it handles the most annoying pokes pretty well overall (especially since Pika seems less of a threat) - entrpntr: but so many things have Electric moves - entrpntr: and Hyper Beam hurts a lot more with less HP - entrpntr: Miltank just really struggles with the stronger special types - entrpntr: so having something as a fallback plan for those in case Wobbuffet is dead seemingly ends up having a bunch of value - entrpntr: Lapras > Gyara for that, even with lower speed, but I'll need to track fights more closely for how I end up losing - entrpntr: to figure out what is more important overall - Ed. Note: Paste for L20 Concept (https://pastebin.com/hUpByGnX) created on 27 Jul 2018 === Three Poke Harmony === Gyarados outshines Lapras and takes its spot to complete the team 28 Jul 2018 - entrpntr: I got another streak of 7 - entrpntr: after losing like 10-11 times - entrpntr: was like 60% in battles for those attempts, then got streak of 7 - entrpntr: hmm, I had tried Lapras lead, I may be conflating those failures with other failures - entrpntr: this streak of 7 I got with Hidden Power Bug 70 in place of Growl - entrpntr: since Umbreon was a common death point last time (also helps to some degree against Exeggutor, Alakazam, Starmie) - entrpntr: should probably experiment some more with non-Lapras - entrpntr: Lapras hasn't helped much at all for Heracross or Pikachu - entrpntr: Miltank is actually pretty reliable at handling Heracross, it just can't switch in - entrpntr: no Growl makes Tauros a bigger issue - entrpntr: less ways of dealing with it - entrpntr: but Lapras's sheer ability to stay alive and accomplish random useful things probably means it is still the choice - entrpntr: Hidden Power Flying on Gyarados would be necessary, because Heracross Megahorn still does over 1/3 - entrpntr: and Hidden Power Flying is CDxx - entrpntr: which screws Hit Points 31 Jul 2018 - 2 Aug 2018 - entrpntr: I can't win anymore in Battle Tower - entrpntr: dunno what to do - entrpntr: winrate is definitely below 70% - entrpntr: ok won a set of 7 three attempts later - entrpntr: was probably 0 for last 30-35 - entrpntr: feels like it was pretty miserable luck, but the enemy gets so many turns that I don't know how unlikely some of the stuff was ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I realized you might be able to switch Miltank in on Blissey - entrpntr: just Mud-Slap and Milk Drink spam - entrpntr: so that should be helpful - entrpntr: means Rock Smash's main use is Umbreon then - entrpntr: but Umbreon is pretty important - entrpntr: Hyper Beam is wrecking havoc so I want to put Growl back in - entrpntr: Hidden Power Bug has been useful, but maybe not useful enough - entrpntr: rough balancing act - entrpntr: I am going to experiment with Gyarados next ~~~~~ - entrpntr: lol hmm - entrpntr: Umbreon spams Protect vs Gyarados - entrpntr: spams Toxic until it hits, then spams Protect - entrpntr: only 10 PP tho - entrpntr: you can waste that if you put a Safeguard up - entrpntr: a couple safeguards ~~~~~ - entrpntr: Gyarados seems okay - entrpntr: have won about at the same rate - entrpntr: makes strategy a bit more obvious - entrpntr: I was hoping testing Gyarados would make it obvious one way or the other, but now I am just more confused ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I think Gyarados might be better - entrpntr: @Bitter Berry; Surf/HP Flying/Rock Smash/Endure - entrpntr: I've won 3 times with Gyarados - entrpntr: I may need to try some of the things I've learned with Lapras - entrpntr: there are ways to keep things alive that I hadn't been doing - gifvex: does gyarados bait hyper beams better? - entrpntr: I think so - entrpntr: I haven't tried Endure on Lapras yet, but I might now - entrpntr: my theory is something like Gyarados has a more optimized moveset with 4 moves - entrpntr: Lapras can do more things, but can't fit it all into 4 moves - entrpntr: but switching Miltank in on Blissey was a revelation that I haven't tried much for Lapras - entrpntr: among other things ~~~~~ - entrpntr: it's possible Gyarados should have Quick Claw instead - entrpntr: anyway, I'm back to optimistic, but still confused - entrpntr: I think Weezing and Slowbro can be ruled out though - entrpntr: probably should be switching Miltank in on Hitmonchan too - entrpntr: anything where Miltank can just go into a heal loop - entrpntr: I keep on winning 3-4 battles with Gyara, so seems good - entrpntr: I think Gyara might open up other possibilities - entrpntr: maybe give Miltank Quick Claw or Bitter Berry instead of PSNcureberry - entrpntr: but idk, at least Gyara testing gave me more ideas to try - entrpntr: which can only improve success rate - entrpntr: but things that are faster than Miltank are really annoying, so maybe Quick Claw can be useful - entrpntr: main reason I'm biased towards Gyara right now tho is because it is way easier to play than Lapras ~~~~~ - entrpntr: another 7 streak with Gyara - entrpntr: probably like 4/30 and I'm barely used to the team - entrpntr: I did start with some good luck tho - entrpntr: but I'm confident it shouldn't be a torturous grind - entrpntr: because I'm not going to grind for first try - entrpntr: will give some buffer time for failing manips and something like 2-3 losses in Tower ~~~~~ - entrpntr: and now 5/32ish - entrpntr: no doubt I've been getting above average luck with Gyara, but the general usage patterns make a lot of sense - entrpntr: and other than Nidoking, Lapras dies to the same pokes that know Electric moves without really accomplishing much, so the quad weakness isn't a huge dealbreaker like I thought it might be - entrpntr: thought that was where Body Slam could turn out to be an asset - entrpntr: eventually I will stop testing and make a decision ~~~~~ - entrpntr: one Battle Tower attempt with Gyarados for the night, one more streak of 7 - entrpntr: might give one more go at trying to get Lapras to work, but otherwise probably locked in ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I did another round of Battle Tower after the one I mentioned and my streak is 21 straight battles now 5 Aug 2018 - entrpntr: my theory on why Lapras sucks is simply that it fares worse against Umbreon (Mud-Slap lowers accuracy, but the chip damage it deals is also surprisingly significant) - entrpntr: there was some theoretical value against Pikachu which led me to think Lapras might be better, but that did not surface too often in practice - entrpntr: so everything comes down to Umbreon, and Gyarados is better for that - entrpntr: the fact that Gyara can stay alive after dealing with Heracross (as opposed to sacrificing Lapras) has also seemed to matter more than I thought ~~~~~ - entrpntr: I am pretty sure it is not versatile enough, but Scyther gets Leer+Thief and STAB Hidden Power Bug or Flying - entrpntr: reason it comes to mind is it almost seems like the formula for why Gyara works is "Flying type (for Heracross/Umbreon) + can deal enough damage to Umbreon and Blissey (def drop/strong enough moves)" - entrpntr: Crobat kind of dies to Blissey/Exeggutor and is weaker - entrpntr: but I think Crobat and Scyther are the only other things that meet that criteria and can do anything remotely interesting - entrpntr: in any event, I have decided on Gyarados - entrpntr: so at least I have 1 thing that I am definitely happy with, makes tweaking from here a lot more tolerable 6 Aug 2018 - 8 Sep 2018 - Tower strategy refinement, pre-Tower routing, manip botting 18 Sep 2018 - 2:45:59 raw practice run 28 Oct 2018 - 1:57:57 semi-serious run ... To be continued? ...